First, she wrote that the Breslover is somewhat correct about achieving faith without intellectual investigation. Then, she decided there is a need to fuse faith with intellectual understanding. But in the end, she changed her mind and wrote that unquestionable proof is needed to know that the faith is true, and there can't be true faith otherwise.
(Quick response:
1: No faith is needed when you know it already.
2: Through faith (not philosophizing), you arrive at an understanding, etc., and greater faith.
3: Regarding her question of how to merit faith and only to believe in the truth, see LM 7 and LM, vol 2, 5...
4: The story about Rabbi Nosson is inaccurate - see כוכבי אור.)
Regarding whether the Torah was forgotten at some point in history. The Gemara in Sanhedrin (21b) discusses whether Ezra changed the alphabet of the Sefer Torah from Ivri to Ashuri. The Ran there says the following:
ובאמת כי כשגלו ישראל לבבל כבר הלכו להם עשרת השבטים בחלח וחבור ונשארו מתי מעט ושנו את לשונם ואת כתבם ונשתכחה מהם התורה הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם
In Truth, when the Jewish people went into exile in Babylonia, the 10 tribes were already lost and there were only a small number of Jews left, they changed their language and alphabet and they forgot the Torah. We see that the Torah was forgotten in the time of Ezra and even the famous mitzvos like Succa [were forgotten]. When [Ezra] read the mitzva [of Succa] it was a big surprise to them. Then Ezra opened their eyes to the laws of the Torah and the Mitzvos and he restored the alphabet that had been lost.
The Ran says that they forgot even famous mitzvas like Succa and had no recollection whatsoever of it. They also forgot the alphabet and couldn't read it. In short, they completely forgot the Torah and Ezra restored.
The Ramban al Hatorah says this as well (במדבר ט"ו:כ"ב) when talking about how the entire Jewish people could sin בשוגג. He writes:
In our sinfulness, this has already happened in the days of the evil kings of Israel, such as Jeroboam, that most of the nation completely forgot Torah and the commandments, and the instance in the book of Ezra about the people of the Second Temple.
The Ramban writes that in the times of the first Beis Hamikdash as well as the time of Ezra most of the Jewish people completely forgot the Torah. In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
Regarding whether the Torah was forgotten at some point in history. The Gemara in Sanhedrin (21b) discusses whether Ezra changed the alphabet of the Sefer Torah from Ivri to Ashuri. The Ran there says the following: ובאמת כי כשגלו ישראל לבבל כבר הלכו להם עשרת השבטים בחלח וחבור ונשארו מתי מעט ושנו את לשונם ואת כתבם ונשתכחה מהם התורה הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם In Truth, when the Jewish people went into exile in Babylonia, the 10 tribes were already lost and there were only a small number of Jews left, they changed their language and alphabet and they forgot the Torah. We see that the Torah was forgotten in the time of Ezra and even the famous mitzvos like Succa [were forgotten]. When [Ezra] read the mitzva [of Succa] it was a big surprise to them. Then Ezra opened their eyes to the laws of the Torah and the Mitzvos and he restored the alphabet that had been lost. The Ran says that they forgot even famous mitzvas like Succa and had no recollection whatsoever of it. They also forgot the alphabet and couldn't read it. In short, they completely forgot the Torah and Ezra restored. The Ramban al Hatorah says this as well (במדבר ט"ו:כ"ב) when talking about how the entire Jewish people could sin בשוגג. He writes: In our sinfulness, this has already happened in the days of the evil kings of Israel, such as Jeroboam, that most of the nation completely forgot Torah and the commandments, and the instance in the book of Ezra about the people of the Second Temple. The Ramban writes that in the times of the first Beis Hamikdash as well as the time of Ezra most of the Jewish people completely forgot the Torah. In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
The Ramban writes that in the times of the first Beis Hamikdash as well as the time of Ezra most of the Jewish people completely forgot the Torah. In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.View comment
The Rambn writes that most of the Jewish people had forgotten the Mitzovos of the Torah and were therefore not keeping them. The situation was similar to the situation today. What percent of the Jewish People today truly know the Torah and the keep the mitzvos. Ten percent? Twenty percent, maximum? Not more than that. But would you say that the Torah has been forgotten in our times and therefore any charlatan or fraud could now come and introduce a new book and say that it was the Torah that the Jews received at Har Sinai?
Of course not! Because it has not been totally forgotten, there are still many people who know it and have it. And that’s exactly the situation what was in those times. It was just like now.
In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
Let’s take the points one by one:
The Ramban writes that most of the Jewish people had forgotten the Mitzovos of the Torah and were therefore not keeping them. Most, not all. The situation was similar to the situation today. What percent of the Jewish People today truly know the Torah and the keep the mitzvos? Ten percent? Twenty percent, maximum? Not more than that. But would you say that because for many people the Torah has been forgotten in our times, therefore any charlatan or fraud could now come and introduce a new book and say that it was the Torah that the Jews received at Har Sinai? Obviously this is impossible, because there are still so many that still do have it. And it was the same in those times. There was a Sanhedrin, there were many learned Jews. They were the minority, but that minority numbered many thousands. It was just like today.
Furthermore, when the Ramban says that they forget the Torah, he means the mitzvos of the Torah, but not the existence of the Torah. Yes, the unlearned forget much of the contents of the Torah. But the Ramban does not say that the people had no mesorah, no memory of matan Torah, and that Ezra convinced them of the truth of the Torah. This is what you conclude from this, but it is most definitely not what he says.
The people who came back to Israel with Ezra were all believers. Otherwise, why did they come? They came to build the Temple. There was no such thing as secualar Zionism in their times, and they were not independent either, they were subject of Persia. So why did they come? They came because they believed! You conclude that Ezra convinced them of the truth of the Torah. Please show me one verse in Ezra that says that. On the contrary, when you read ay book of Ezra you see nothing about Ezra convincing them of Matan Torah or the truth of the mesora. That subject doesn’t come up at all, because it was self understood, everybody knew that was true.
When you read the book of Ezra you see that. Ezra never needed to convince them of the truth. It is clear from the words of the book of Ezra that they all believed in it. They were just so ignorant that they didn’t know what it says, but they were very eager to keep it. Ezra didn’t convince them of the truth of matan Torah. Nowhere does it say that anyone doubted that. The people were simply unlearned and Ezra convinced them to keep the Torah. d
And there were at the same time also learned people, just as today there are learned people. There was a Sanhedrin of very learned Jews, there were houses of Torah study and many people – although the minority – were studying and keeping Torah. Just like today.
If you think that they didn’t have a mesora and a memory of matan Torah, then why did they listen to Ezra when he read the Torah to them? Why did they agree to send away their foreign wives? Ezra and Nehemia and their helpers read the Torah to the people who began to cry and cry when they realized how badly they had violated the Torah. They were terribly ignorant, but they truly believed in the Torah or they wouldn’t have reacted that way.
Now let’s deal with the other points:
The Gemara in Sanhedrin (21b) discusses whether Ezra changed the alphabet of the Sefer Torah from Ivri to Ashuri.
Yes, there is an opinion that the script was changed but not the content. No one ever said the content was changed. And it would be worthwhile to look into the entire explanation as to why it was changed.
The Ran there says the following: ובאמת כי כשגלו ישראל לבבל כבר הלכו להם עשרת השבטים בחלח וחבור ונשארו מתי מעט ושנו את לשונם ואת כתבם ונשתכחה מהם התורה הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם In Truth, when the Jewish people went into exile in Babylonia, the 10 tribes were already lost and there were only a small number of Jews left, they changed their language and alphabet and they forgot the Torah. We see that the Torah was forgotten in the time of Ezra and even the famous mitzvos like Succa [were forgotten]. When [Ezra] read the mitzva [of Succa] it was a big surprise to them. Then Ezra opened their eyes to the laws of the Torah and the Mitzvos and he restored the alphabet that had been lost.
The Ran is explaining the situation in a general sense. As mentioned above, there were still thousands of Jews who did know and keep the Torah. Imagine if Moshiach came today and told all the Jews about the Torah. Would he be introducing new? No, because so many people today have the Torah, even though they are the minority of the Jewish nation.
The people who came back with Ezra were, for the most part, the most unlearned. Back in Babylon there were many learned Jews although even in Babylon there were those who were very weak in Torah. It was exactly the same situation we have today. There are some who know and keep Torah, and they are the minority, while the majority do not. The difference is, that in those times the ignorant majority DID believe that the Torah had been given to their ancestors at Har Sinai. That was NOT forgotten. The were simply very unlearned.
And what is brought as an example of what they forget? The mitzvah of Succah. Not the mitzvos of Pesach, which commerate the exodus, and not Shavuos which commemorates the giving of the Torah. Nowhere does it say that these were forgotten. These mitzvos, which are the basis of the faith WERE NOT FORGOTTEN. It was Succah, which people didn’t take as seriously that was forgotten. This, too, is similar to today. Most Jews have heard of Passover, but they have not heard of Succos
I am answering this now in a hurry on Friday afternoon (in Israel) so it is not very polished. Perhaps I will answer more fully later on.
Sorry read the Ran and the Rambam again. They didn’t know about succos. The difference between them and now is the proliferation of books. Now there are books with all the information. At the time of Ezra there were no books, in fact there was a Torah prohibition to write down the oral law.
Isha Yiras Hashem explained the Ran and Ramban perfectly well. The המון עם didn't know about Succos because they went off the derech for several generations, just like our Reform and secular brothers. That doesn't mean Ezra and the Leviim didn't. Thankfully our mesorah is not dependent upon the המון עם.
“There was no way to later tell people, “Well, your ancestors did tell their descendants all this, but it was forgotten, so I’m reintroducing this Torah.” Such a claim would be immediately dismissed because the Torah itself says, "for it will not be forgotten from the mouths of his seed!"11 Anyone making such a claim would be exposed as a fraud.”
If the masses forgot everything then yes the claim would not be dismissed.
Ah, in that case I don't know why you had to bring the Ran and Ramban. You could have just brought proof from Reform and secular Jews. I agree that כי לא תשכח מפי זרעו is not a compelling proof to anything the way she uses it.
Although I answered the comment earlier, it was a done in a rush and I would like to give a fuller explanation here.
The comment said: In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
Did you ever actually study the book of Ezra? If you had, maybe you would have noticed a few things that show just the opposite of this. I’d like to quote some of it for you. First, however it’s important to put things in the proper historical perspective.
Ezra came to the land of Israel about 7 years after the Purim miracle took place. Chazal tell us that Mordechai was a member of the Sanhedrin. How can there be a Sanhedrin if the Torah had been forgotten (cholila)?
Chazal tell us that Esther sent a message to the chachamim to have her book written “for generations”, and they accept this. The chachamim (Torah scholars) agree and the festival of Purim is instituted and is accepted by the entire Jewish People about seven years before the advent of Ezra.
Hey, wait a minute! What Torah scholars are we talking about? Hadn’t the Torah (supposedly) been forgotten? So how could there be Torah scholars?? And these Torah scholars are so important that their decision is accepted by the entire Jewish nation. In fact, they are so important that even Mordechia and Esther, for all their greatness, couldn’t do anything without them. (from gemara Megilla)
And in that period (before Ezra comes on the scene) the chachamim (Torah scholars)(who supposedly didn’t exist) had forbidden the wine of gentiles in order to prevent intermarriage, and the Jewish people accept this. This is so well known that even Haman knows it, and uses it to arouse King Achashverosh’s ire against the Jews, telling him that a Jew wouldn’t drink wine if the king had touched it. (also from gemara Megilla).
Chazal also tell us how Mordechai was teaching the Jewish children the laws of the omer when Haman comes along to lead Mordechai through the streets on the king’s horse. Haman says that the bit of omer defeated his 10,000 talents of silver.
Does Jewish children studying the laws of the omer before Ezra comes on the scene show that the people had forgotten the mesorah of the Torah?? Or does it show just the opposite?
“הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם”
2/2 The Jews were exiled to Babylon in stages. During the first stage King Nevuchadnetsar exiled the “charash and the Masger”, who were the big talmidei chachamim. Does the mean that the Torah had been forgotten, or that there were still plenty of important people studying Torah? Furthermore, when Ezra comes on the scene he teaches Torah in the land of Israel, not in Babylon. So how was it that there were so many chachamim in Babylon, that the Talmud was written in Babylon – without any help from Ezra??
When the Ran and the Ramban write that the Torah was forgotten, they mean that most of the people forgot the laws of the Torah. Many people were ignorant but even the ignorant knew that there was a tradition of matan Torah. You can see this from the book of Ezra itself. First, however, let’s give a little background of the book of Ezra.
After the destruction of the first Temple, Judea was left barren. All the Jews were taken into exile. (At first there were a few Jews left in Judea, but they soon fled to Egypt after the governor Gedaliah ben Achikom was killed.) Fifty two years later King Darius, and his son in law Cyrus, conquer Babylon. Darius dies half a year later and his son in law Cyrus, now king, encourages the Jews to return to the land of Israel and rebuild the temple. That’s where the book of Ezra begins. Ezra himself is still in Babylon. He can’t leave because his teacher, Baruch ben Neriyah is old and ill and can’t make the trip, and Ezra won’t leave him, so in the meantime, Ezra remains in Babylon. He is not spreading Torah knowledge in Babylon, he is still studying it under his teacher. So how did all those Jews in Babylon believe in the Torah, without Ezra’s benefit?
Back to the land of Israel: the returnees, led by Zerubavel, settle in their ancestral cities, and then they build an altar on the place where the Temple had stood and begin to bring sacrifices. The first sacrifices are brought on the first day of the seventh month, which is Rosh Hashonoa, and then they continue bringing sacrifices for Succos. The Book of Ezra describes it thus: Yeshua son of Yotsadok and his brothers the kohanim and Zerubavel son of Shialtiel and his brothers arose and built the alter of the God of Israel to bring up on it burnt offering as is written in the Torah of Moshe the man of God. (Ezra 3:2) …and they made the festival of Succos (i.e., the sacrifices required for the festival of Succos) as it is written, and the olah sacrifice for each day in the right number as is the law, the matter of each day…(ibid 3:4).
This took place about twenty years before Ezra comes to the land of Israel.
So did Ezra introduce the Torah to the people in the land of Israel, or did they clearly have it and know it??
Then what happened?
The Jewish settlement fell on very difficult times. The surrounding non Jews reported to the king that the Jews meant to rebel against him (a total slander) and he forbade them to continue building the Temple. He also forbids more Jews to “cross the river” and immigrate to Israel. Then Cyrus dies and Achashverosh becomes king. He, too, forbids them to build the Temple. Many of the great people who had come to the land, leave, and no more can come. The poor and unlearned are left on their own. There are no schools for the children. The people are very poor and are trying to simply survive. Someone starts working his winepress on the Sabbath. Others start marrying girls from the non-Jewish population. The people are forgetting the Torah. They speak Aramaic instead of Hebrew, so they can’t even read and understand the Torah. The situation is bad.
Eighteen years after Cyrus gives permission to return to Judea, Achashverosh dies, and his son, Darius the second becomes king. He encourages the Jews to return to Israel. Four years later, when Ezra’s teacher dies, Ezra comes to Israel. He totally revives the people. But does Ezra convince them of the mesora? Not at all. As ignorant as they are, they knew there was a great Torah that had been given to the Jewish people. Nowhere does it ever say that Ezra had to convince them of the truth of the Torah. This is because, despite their ignorance, they all believed in it.
Let’s see what the book of Ezra actually says that shows this. The people bring sacrifices in newly rebuilt temple “as it is written in the book of Moshe” (Ezra 6:18). (Remember, that Ezra has not yet arrived and yet they are doing what is written in the book of Moshe!) The verses then tell how they made the Pesach sacrifice at the proper time and they did this for “all the children of the exile, and their brothers the Kohanim and for themselves” (ibid 6:20)… “and they made the festival of matsos 7 days with joy for God had given them joy…” (ibid 6:22).
So the Jews are keeping Passover 4 years before Ezra arrives. This is how they forgot the masores??
The following chapter (seven) then tells us how Ezra goes with many more Jews and Kohanim and Levites to Jerusalem. “For Ezra dedicated his heart to expound the Torah of Hashem and to do and to teach in Israel laws and statutes (chok umishpat). (Ezra 7:10).
So was Ezra convincing them of the Torah? Obviously not, because they all knew about it before he came. He was teaching the Torah to the many ignorant people.
Then it is told that the Persian king gave Ezra a letter of recommendation so nobody would bother him and his people on the way. This letter says, “Artachshasta (the generic name of the Persian kings) king over kings, gives this writ to Ezra the Kohen, the wise man in the law of the Torah of the God of Heaven.”
So even the Persian king knows about God’s Torah. All the Jews knew about the God’s Torah and also many of the non Jews.
And when Ezra arrives in the land of Israel, he corrects their behavior, he tells them that they must stop sinning, but he never convinces them of the mesores. It never implies that at all. Why should he? They all believed in it.
Then look into the book of Nehemia who says that he was in Shushan when one of Nehemia’s friends comes from Yehuda, and Nehemia asks him what the stituaion is like there. Chanani, Nehemia’s friend answers that the situation is very bleak. Nehemia cries and fasts and then prays a long prayer. One of the things he says in his outpouring of emotion to God is, “we have not kept the mitzvos and the laws and the statues that You commanded Moshe your servant”.
How did Nehemia know about the laws that God commanded His servant Moshe? He was in Shushan, not in Judea. Ezra hadn’t taught him anything.
How? Because the Torah had never been forgotten.
Nechemia then goes to the land of Israel and helps Ezra. Later, all the people come to hear the Torah being read, (with an Aramaic translation, since the ignorant Jews no longer knew Hebrew) and when they realize how far they have strayed from the law they cry and cry, till Ezra and his helpers have to calm them down and tell them to go home and be happy. After all, they are all doing teshuva. No mention is ever made of anyone convincing them about the mesores. . They all have a masores. They all know that the Torah is true. But they have not kept it out of ignorance.
And one of the things they stopped keeping was Succos, but not Pesach.
Pesach is the basis of the faith. They all had faith.
So why do the Ran and the Ramban says what they did? Because they were describing the tragic situation in a general sense, but they never said the words you said: “In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.” The Ran and the Ramban never said that. They base what they say on what is written in the Tanach (Bible) and the Talmud. That is the only source of their knowledge, so obviously they didn’t mean to disagree with what is written there. And as we have shown, what is written there is that the Torah and the masores were never forgotten and Ezra never convinced the people of the truth of the Torah, he simply taught them the Torah that they already believed in, but whose laws they had forgotten. And even that was only in Judea. The diaspora had their tradtion independent of Ezra.
Read the words of the Ran and the Ramban. They are unequivocal.
הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם
Another point: I just looked into the book of Ezra, chapter 3:5. It is speaking about what happened in the days of Cyrus, about 20 years before Ezra came to the land of Israel. It says there: "And Yeshua son of Tsadok and his brothers the Cohanim and Zerubavel son of Shialtiel and his brother arose and built the altar of the G0d of Israel to bring up on it burnt offerings as is written in the Torah of Moshe , the man of G-d."
This is describing what happened when the first wave of returnees came back to the land, which, as mentioned above, was about 20 years before Ezra came. And they were doing "as is written in the Torah of Moshe, the man of G-d". So was the Torah forgotten?? Of course not. But these were learned people, and the majority were not.
Hi. I want to make sure something is clear. When I wrote "the diaspora had their tradition independent of Ezra", I didn't mean that they did not accept the institutions made by Ezra, called "takanos Ezra", or the return to the Ashuri alphabet. They did. I mean that the mesoras, their chain of Torah knowledge, was already there independently.
The reason I am saying this is because if one could interpret the words of the Ran and Ramban to mean that there was no memory of matan Torah, which is totally, totally not what they meant, then one could easily misinterpret what I wrote as well.
This topic is perennially popular in the frum Jewish blogosphere. I have what to add, but much more to learn. If I may, I'd like to recommend two books that readers here may enjoy: The Intellect and the Exodus by Rabbi Jeremy Kagan and Judaism Reclaimed: Philosophy and Theology in the Torah by Shmuel Philips. Both are recent publications and comprehensively address many of the issues discussed, from a a variety of angles.
To the point about Galileo, most intellectuals in his era, following Aristotle, were liable to believe that the Earth was spherical (Aristotle proved it based on the changing position of stars when viewed from Athens as opposed to when viewed from Egypt). What Galileo did was provide proof that the Earth spins in a manner mostly consistent with Copernicus's theory of heliocentrism. This is why Columbus was not viewed as completely insane in his time.
If the Zohar did indeed predict that there are people living on the other side of the Earth (what we would now call the Americas), that would be impressive indeed.
"and the Zohar, written long before Galileo, states that the earth is shaped like a ball and that there are people on the other side." The quote from the article.
The Zohar quote cited. "The entire world and those who inhabit it spin in a circle like a ball. Some are above, and some below."
What I was saying is that I'm not so sure about said Zohar quote predicting the existence of life on the other side of the Earth. I want to clarify that I never intended to say it didn't predict that the Earth was round (it clearly does), which is easy to figure out with astronomy much more simple than Chazal were capable of (they could predict eclipse cycles, for example). I also want to make clear that I'm not denying the interpretation that the Zohar predicts life on the other side of the Earth; the Zohar is a notoriously mysterious text, and you are likely more experienced with it than I am.
First, she wrote that the Breslover is somewhat correct about achieving faith without intellectual investigation. Then, she decided there is a need to fuse faith with intellectual understanding. But in the end, she changed her mind and wrote that unquestionable proof is needed to know that the faith is true, and there can't be true faith otherwise.
(Quick response:
1: No faith is needed when you know it already.
2: Through faith (not philosophizing), you arrive at an understanding, etc., and greater faith.
3: Regarding her question of how to merit faith and only to believe in the truth, see LM 7 and LM, vol 2, 5...
4: The story about Rabbi Nosson is inaccurate - see כוכבי אור.)
Rebbetzin Fastag, I highly enjoyed reading your fascinating article and learned much about spirituality.
Regarding whether the Torah was forgotten at some point in history. The Gemara in Sanhedrin (21b) discusses whether Ezra changed the alphabet of the Sefer Torah from Ivri to Ashuri. The Ran there says the following:
ובאמת כי כשגלו ישראל לבבל כבר הלכו להם עשרת השבטים בחלח וחבור ונשארו מתי מעט ושנו את לשונם ואת כתבם ונשתכחה מהם התורה הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם
In Truth, when the Jewish people went into exile in Babylonia, the 10 tribes were already lost and there were only a small number of Jews left, they changed their language and alphabet and they forgot the Torah. We see that the Torah was forgotten in the time of Ezra and even the famous mitzvos like Succa [were forgotten]. When [Ezra] read the mitzva [of Succa] it was a big surprise to them. Then Ezra opened their eyes to the laws of the Torah and the Mitzvos and he restored the alphabet that had been lost.
The Ran says that they forgot even famous mitzvas like Succa and had no recollection whatsoever of it. They also forgot the alphabet and couldn't read it. In short, they completely forgot the Torah and Ezra restored.
The Ramban al Hatorah says this as well (במדבר ט"ו:כ"ב) when talking about how the entire Jewish people could sin בשוגג. He writes:
In our sinfulness, this has already happened in the days of the evil kings of Israel, such as Jeroboam, that most of the nation completely forgot Torah and the commandments, and the instance in the book of Ezra about the people of the Second Temple.
The Ramban writes that in the times of the first Beis Hamikdash as well as the time of Ezra most of the Jewish people completely forgot the Torah. In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
Regarding whether the Torah was forgotten at some point in history. The Gemara in Sanhedrin (21b) discusses whether Ezra changed the alphabet of the Sefer Torah from Ivri to Ashuri. The Ran there says the following: ובאמת כי כשגלו ישראל לבבל כבר הלכו להם עשרת השבטים בחלח וחבור ונשארו מתי מעט ושנו את לשונם ואת כתבם ונשתכחה מהם התורה הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם In Truth, when the Jewish people went into exile in Babylonia, the 10 tribes were already lost and there were only a small number of Jews left, they changed their language and alphabet and they forgot the Torah. We see that the Torah was forgotten in the time of Ezra and even the famous mitzvos like Succa [were forgotten]. When [Ezra] read the mitzva [of Succa] it was a big surprise to them. Then Ezra opened their eyes to the laws of the Torah and the Mitzvos and he restored the alphabet that had been lost. The Ran says that they forgot even famous mitzvas like Succa and had no recollection whatsoever of it. They also forgot the alphabet and couldn't read it. In short, they completely forgot the Torah and Ezra restored. The Ramban al Hatorah says this as well (במדבר ט"ו:כ"ב) when talking about how the entire Jewish people could sin בשוגג. He writes: In our sinfulness, this has already happened in the days of the evil kings of Israel, such as Jeroboam, that most of the nation completely forgot Torah and the commandments, and the instance in the book of Ezra about the people of the Second Temple. The Ramban writes that in the times of the first Beis Hamikdash as well as the time of Ezra most of the Jewish people completely forgot the Torah. In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
The Ramban writes that in the times of the first Beis Hamikdash as well as the time of Ezra most of the Jewish people completely forgot the Torah. In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.View comment
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The Rambn writes that most of the Jewish people had forgotten the Mitzovos of the Torah and were therefore not keeping them. The situation was similar to the situation today. What percent of the Jewish People today truly know the Torah and the keep the mitzvos. Ten percent? Twenty percent, maximum? Not more than that. But would you say that the Torah has been forgotten in our times and therefore any charlatan or fraud could now come and introduce a new book and say that it was the Torah that the Jews received at Har Sinai?
Of course not! Because it has not been totally forgotten, there are still many people who know it and have it. And that’s exactly the situation what was in those times. It was just like now.
In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
Let’s take the points one by one:
The Ramban writes that most of the Jewish people had forgotten the Mitzovos of the Torah and were therefore not keeping them. Most, not all. The situation was similar to the situation today. What percent of the Jewish People today truly know the Torah and the keep the mitzvos? Ten percent? Twenty percent, maximum? Not more than that. But would you say that because for many people the Torah has been forgotten in our times, therefore any charlatan or fraud could now come and introduce a new book and say that it was the Torah that the Jews received at Har Sinai? Obviously this is impossible, because there are still so many that still do have it. And it was the same in those times. There was a Sanhedrin, there were many learned Jews. They were the minority, but that minority numbered many thousands. It was just like today.
Furthermore, when the Ramban says that they forget the Torah, he means the mitzvos of the Torah, but not the existence of the Torah. Yes, the unlearned forget much of the contents of the Torah. But the Ramban does not say that the people had no mesorah, no memory of matan Torah, and that Ezra convinced them of the truth of the Torah. This is what you conclude from this, but it is most definitely not what he says.
The people who came back to Israel with Ezra were all believers. Otherwise, why did they come? They came to build the Temple. There was no such thing as secualar Zionism in their times, and they were not independent either, they were subject of Persia. So why did they come? They came because they believed! You conclude that Ezra convinced them of the truth of the Torah. Please show me one verse in Ezra that says that. On the contrary, when you read ay book of Ezra you see nothing about Ezra convincing them of Matan Torah or the truth of the mesora. That subject doesn’t come up at all, because it was self understood, everybody knew that was true.
When you read the book of Ezra you see that. Ezra never needed to convince them of the truth. It is clear from the words of the book of Ezra that they all believed in it. They were just so ignorant that they didn’t know what it says, but they were very eager to keep it. Ezra didn’t convince them of the truth of matan Torah. Nowhere does it say that anyone doubted that. The people were simply unlearned and Ezra convinced them to keep the Torah. d
And there were at the same time also learned people, just as today there are learned people. There was a Sanhedrin of very learned Jews, there were houses of Torah study and many people – although the minority – were studying and keeping Torah. Just like today.
If you think that they didn’t have a mesora and a memory of matan Torah, then why did they listen to Ezra when he read the Torah to them? Why did they agree to send away their foreign wives? Ezra and Nehemia and their helpers read the Torah to the people who began to cry and cry when they realized how badly they had violated the Torah. They were terribly ignorant, but they truly believed in the Torah or they wouldn’t have reacted that way.
Now let’s deal with the other points:
The Gemara in Sanhedrin (21b) discusses whether Ezra changed the alphabet of the Sefer Torah from Ivri to Ashuri.
Yes, there is an opinion that the script was changed but not the content. No one ever said the content was changed. And it would be worthwhile to look into the entire explanation as to why it was changed.
The Ran there says the following: ובאמת כי כשגלו ישראל לבבל כבר הלכו להם עשרת השבטים בחלח וחבור ונשארו מתי מעט ושנו את לשונם ואת כתבם ונשתכחה מהם התורה הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם In Truth, when the Jewish people went into exile in Babylonia, the 10 tribes were already lost and there were only a small number of Jews left, they changed their language and alphabet and they forgot the Torah. We see that the Torah was forgotten in the time of Ezra and even the famous mitzvos like Succa [were forgotten]. When [Ezra] read the mitzva [of Succa] it was a big surprise to them. Then Ezra opened their eyes to the laws of the Torah and the Mitzvos and he restored the alphabet that had been lost.
The Ran is explaining the situation in a general sense. As mentioned above, there were still thousands of Jews who did know and keep the Torah. Imagine if Moshiach came today and told all the Jews about the Torah. Would he be introducing new? No, because so many people today have the Torah, even though they are the minority of the Jewish nation.
The people who came back with Ezra were, for the most part, the most unlearned. Back in Babylon there were many learned Jews although even in Babylon there were those who were very weak in Torah. It was exactly the same situation we have today. There are some who know and keep Torah, and they are the minority, while the majority do not. The difference is, that in those times the ignorant majority DID believe that the Torah had been given to their ancestors at Har Sinai. That was NOT forgotten. The were simply very unlearned.
And what is brought as an example of what they forget? The mitzvah of Succah. Not the mitzvos of Pesach, which commerate the exodus, and not Shavuos which commemorates the giving of the Torah. Nowhere does it say that these were forgotten. These mitzvos, which are the basis of the faith WERE NOT FORGOTTEN. It was Succah, which people didn’t take as seriously that was forgotten. This, too, is similar to today. Most Jews have heard of Passover, but they have not heard of Succos
I am answering this now in a hurry on Friday afternoon (in Israel) so it is not very polished. Perhaps I will answer more fully later on.
Sorry read the Ran and the Rambam again. They didn’t know about succos. The difference between them and now is the proliferation of books. Now there are books with all the information. At the time of Ezra there were no books, in fact there was a Torah prohibition to write down the oral law.
Isha Yiras Hashem explained the Ran and Ramban perfectly well. The המון עם didn't know about Succos because they went off the derech for several generations, just like our Reform and secular brothers. That doesn't mean Ezra and the Leviim didn't. Thankfully our mesorah is not dependent upon the המון עם.
It's Rebbetzin Fastag, sorry for not making that clearer. I do not know that much!
But even that destroys the argument
“There was no way to later tell people, “Well, your ancestors did tell their descendants all this, but it was forgotten, so I’m reintroducing this Torah.” Such a claim would be immediately dismissed because the Torah itself says, "for it will not be forgotten from the mouths of his seed!"11 Anyone making such a claim would be exposed as a fraud.”
If the masses forgot everything then yes the claim would not be dismissed.
Ah, in that case I don't know why you had to bring the Ran and Ramban. You could have just brought proof from Reform and secular Jews. I agree that כי לא תשכח מפי זרעו is not a compelling proof to anything the way she uses it.
Although I answered the comment earlier, it was a done in a rush and I would like to give a fuller explanation here.
The comment said: In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.
Did you ever actually study the book of Ezra? If you had, maybe you would have noticed a few things that show just the opposite of this. I’d like to quote some of it for you. First, however it’s important to put things in the proper historical perspective.
Ezra came to the land of Israel about 7 years after the Purim miracle took place. Chazal tell us that Mordechai was a member of the Sanhedrin. How can there be a Sanhedrin if the Torah had been forgotten (cholila)?
Chazal tell us that Esther sent a message to the chachamim to have her book written “for generations”, and they accept this. The chachamim (Torah scholars) agree and the festival of Purim is instituted and is accepted by the entire Jewish People about seven years before the advent of Ezra.
Hey, wait a minute! What Torah scholars are we talking about? Hadn’t the Torah (supposedly) been forgotten? So how could there be Torah scholars?? And these Torah scholars are so important that their decision is accepted by the entire Jewish nation. In fact, they are so important that even Mordechia and Esther, for all their greatness, couldn’t do anything without them. (from gemara Megilla)
And in that period (before Ezra comes on the scene) the chachamim (Torah scholars)(who supposedly didn’t exist) had forbidden the wine of gentiles in order to prevent intermarriage, and the Jewish people accept this. This is so well known that even Haman knows it, and uses it to arouse King Achashverosh’s ire against the Jews, telling him that a Jew wouldn’t drink wine if the king had touched it. (also from gemara Megilla).
Chazal also tell us how Mordechai was teaching the Jewish children the laws of the omer when Haman comes along to lead Mordechai through the streets on the king’s horse. Haman says that the bit of omer defeated his 10,000 talents of silver.
Does Jewish children studying the laws of the omer before Ezra comes on the scene show that the people had forgotten the mesorah of the Torah?? Or does it show just the opposite?
Read the Ran again.
“הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם”
2/2 The Jews were exiled to Babylon in stages. During the first stage King Nevuchadnetsar exiled the “charash and the Masger”, who were the big talmidei chachamim. Does the mean that the Torah had been forgotten, or that there were still plenty of important people studying Torah? Furthermore, when Ezra comes on the scene he teaches Torah in the land of Israel, not in Babylon. So how was it that there were so many chachamim in Babylon, that the Talmud was written in Babylon – without any help from Ezra??
When the Ran and the Ramban write that the Torah was forgotten, they mean that most of the people forgot the laws of the Torah. Many people were ignorant but even the ignorant knew that there was a tradition of matan Torah. You can see this from the book of Ezra itself. First, however, let’s give a little background of the book of Ezra.
After the destruction of the first Temple, Judea was left barren. All the Jews were taken into exile. (At first there were a few Jews left in Judea, but they soon fled to Egypt after the governor Gedaliah ben Achikom was killed.) Fifty two years later King Darius, and his son in law Cyrus, conquer Babylon. Darius dies half a year later and his son in law Cyrus, now king, encourages the Jews to return to the land of Israel and rebuild the temple. That’s where the book of Ezra begins. Ezra himself is still in Babylon. He can’t leave because his teacher, Baruch ben Neriyah is old and ill and can’t make the trip, and Ezra won’t leave him, so in the meantime, Ezra remains in Babylon. He is not spreading Torah knowledge in Babylon, he is still studying it under his teacher. So how did all those Jews in Babylon believe in the Torah, without Ezra’s benefit?
Back to the land of Israel: the returnees, led by Zerubavel, settle in their ancestral cities, and then they build an altar on the place where the Temple had stood and begin to bring sacrifices. The first sacrifices are brought on the first day of the seventh month, which is Rosh Hashonoa, and then they continue bringing sacrifices for Succos. The Book of Ezra describes it thus: Yeshua son of Yotsadok and his brothers the kohanim and Zerubavel son of Shialtiel and his brothers arose and built the alter of the God of Israel to bring up on it burnt offering as is written in the Torah of Moshe the man of God. (Ezra 3:2) …and they made the festival of Succos (i.e., the sacrifices required for the festival of Succos) as it is written, and the olah sacrifice for each day in the right number as is the law, the matter of each day…(ibid 3:4).
This took place about twenty years before Ezra comes to the land of Israel.
So did Ezra introduce the Torah to the people in the land of Israel, or did they clearly have it and know it??
Then what happened?
The Jewish settlement fell on very difficult times. The surrounding non Jews reported to the king that the Jews meant to rebel against him (a total slander) and he forbade them to continue building the Temple. He also forbids more Jews to “cross the river” and immigrate to Israel. Then Cyrus dies and Achashverosh becomes king. He, too, forbids them to build the Temple. Many of the great people who had come to the land, leave, and no more can come. The poor and unlearned are left on their own. There are no schools for the children. The people are very poor and are trying to simply survive. Someone starts working his winepress on the Sabbath. Others start marrying girls from the non-Jewish population. The people are forgetting the Torah. They speak Aramaic instead of Hebrew, so they can’t even read and understand the Torah. The situation is bad.
Eighteen years after Cyrus gives permission to return to Judea, Achashverosh dies, and his son, Darius the second becomes king. He encourages the Jews to return to Israel. Four years later, when Ezra’s teacher dies, Ezra comes to Israel. He totally revives the people. But does Ezra convince them of the mesora? Not at all. As ignorant as they are, they knew there was a great Torah that had been given to the Jewish people. Nowhere does it ever say that Ezra had to convince them of the truth of the Torah. This is because, despite their ignorance, they all believed in it.
Let’s see what the book of Ezra actually says that shows this. The people bring sacrifices in newly rebuilt temple “as it is written in the book of Moshe” (Ezra 6:18). (Remember, that Ezra has not yet arrived and yet they are doing what is written in the book of Moshe!) The verses then tell how they made the Pesach sacrifice at the proper time and they did this for “all the children of the exile, and their brothers the Kohanim and for themselves” (ibid 6:20)… “and they made the festival of matsos 7 days with joy for God had given them joy…” (ibid 6:22).
So the Jews are keeping Passover 4 years before Ezra arrives. This is how they forgot the masores??
The following chapter (seven) then tells us how Ezra goes with many more Jews and Kohanim and Levites to Jerusalem. “For Ezra dedicated his heart to expound the Torah of Hashem and to do and to teach in Israel laws and statutes (chok umishpat). (Ezra 7:10).
So was Ezra convincing them of the Torah? Obviously not, because they all knew about it before he came. He was teaching the Torah to the many ignorant people.
Then it is told that the Persian king gave Ezra a letter of recommendation so nobody would bother him and his people on the way. This letter says, “Artachshasta (the generic name of the Persian kings) king over kings, gives this writ to Ezra the Kohen, the wise man in the law of the Torah of the God of Heaven.”
So even the Persian king knows about God’s Torah. All the Jews knew about the God’s Torah and also many of the non Jews.
And when Ezra arrives in the land of Israel, he corrects their behavior, he tells them that they must stop sinning, but he never convinces them of the mesores. It never implies that at all. Why should he? They all believed in it.
Then look into the book of Nehemia who says that he was in Shushan when one of Nehemia’s friends comes from Yehuda, and Nehemia asks him what the stituaion is like there. Chanani, Nehemia’s friend answers that the situation is very bleak. Nehemia cries and fasts and then prays a long prayer. One of the things he says in his outpouring of emotion to God is, “we have not kept the mitzvos and the laws and the statues that You commanded Moshe your servant”.
How did Nehemia know about the laws that God commanded His servant Moshe? He was in Shushan, not in Judea. Ezra hadn’t taught him anything.
How? Because the Torah had never been forgotten.
Nechemia then goes to the land of Israel and helps Ezra. Later, all the people come to hear the Torah being read, (with an Aramaic translation, since the ignorant Jews no longer knew Hebrew) and when they realize how far they have strayed from the law they cry and cry, till Ezra and his helpers have to calm them down and tell them to go home and be happy. After all, they are all doing teshuva. No mention is ever made of anyone convincing them about the mesores. . They all have a masores. They all know that the Torah is true. But they have not kept it out of ignorance.
And one of the things they stopped keeping was Succos, but not Pesach.
Pesach is the basis of the faith. They all had faith.
So why do the Ran and the Ramban says what they did? Because they were describing the tragic situation in a general sense, but they never said the words you said: “In other words, most of the people had no mesora, no memory of matan torah and Ezra convinced them of the truth of Torah.” The Ran and the Ramban never said that. They base what they say on what is written in the Tanach (Bible) and the Talmud. That is the only source of their knowledge, so obviously they didn’t mean to disagree with what is written there. And as we have shown, what is written there is that the Torah and the masores were never forgotten and Ezra never convinced the people of the truth of the Torah, he simply taught them the Torah that they already believed in, but whose laws they had forgotten. And even that was only in Judea. The diaspora had their tradtion independent of Ezra.
- Rebbetzin Fastag
Read the words of the Ran and the Ramban. They are unequivocal.
הלא תראה בימי עזרא שנשתכחה מהם התורה ואפילו המצות המפורסמות כסוכה כשקראו להם המצוה היתה להם כחידוש גדול ואז עזרא האיר עיניהם בדיני התורה ומצותיה והוא החזיר להם את כתבם שנשתכחה מהם
Another point: I just looked into the book of Ezra, chapter 3:5. It is speaking about what happened in the days of Cyrus, about 20 years before Ezra came to the land of Israel. It says there: "And Yeshua son of Tsadok and his brothers the Cohanim and Zerubavel son of Shialtiel and his brother arose and built the altar of the G0d of Israel to bring up on it burnt offerings as is written in the Torah of Moshe , the man of G-d."
This is describing what happened when the first wave of returnees came back to the land, which, as mentioned above, was about 20 years before Ezra came. And they were doing "as is written in the Torah of Moshe, the man of G-d". So was the Torah forgotten?? Of course not. But these were learned people, and the majority were not.
Note my responses are Rebbetzin Fastag - I do not know this much!
Hi. I want to make sure something is clear. When I wrote "the diaspora had their tradition independent of Ezra", I didn't mean that they did not accept the institutions made by Ezra, called "takanos Ezra", or the return to the Ashuri alphabet. They did. I mean that the mesoras, their chain of Torah knowledge, was already there independently.
The reason I am saying this is because if one could interpret the words of the Ran and Ramban to mean that there was no memory of matan Torah, which is totally, totally not what they meant, then one could easily misinterpret what I wrote as well.
From iyh - am not following. To respond to Rebbetzin Fastag address her and I'll pass it on
This topic is perennially popular in the frum Jewish blogosphere. I have what to add, but much more to learn. If I may, I'd like to recommend two books that readers here may enjoy: The Intellect and the Exodus by Rabbi Jeremy Kagan and Judaism Reclaimed: Philosophy and Theology in the Torah by Shmuel Philips. Both are recent publications and comprehensively address many of the issues discussed, from a a variety of angles.
Here is a podcast where Phillips discusses his background and book (https://18forty.org/podcast/shmuel-phillips-reclaiming-judaism/) and here is Natan Slifkin's critique of it: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-curious-cholent
To the point about Galileo, most intellectuals in his era, following Aristotle, were liable to believe that the Earth was spherical (Aristotle proved it based on the changing position of stars when viewed from Athens as opposed to when viewed from Egypt). What Galileo did was provide proof that the Earth spins in a manner mostly consistent with Copernicus's theory of heliocentrism. This is why Columbus was not viewed as completely insane in his time.
If the Zohar did indeed predict that there are people living on the other side of the Earth (what we would now call the Americas), that would be impressive indeed.
It did predict the world was round, I thought I cited it in the footnotes
You did, and it does.
"and the Zohar, written long before Galileo, states that the earth is shaped like a ball and that there are people on the other side." The quote from the article.
The Zohar quote cited. "The entire world and those who inhabit it spin in a circle like a ball. Some are above, and some below."
What I was saying is that I'm not so sure about said Zohar quote predicting the existence of life on the other side of the Earth. I want to clarify that I never intended to say it didn't predict that the Earth was round (it clearly does), which is easy to figure out with astronomy much more simple than Chazal were capable of (they could predict eclipse cycles, for example). I also want to make clear that I'm not denying the interpretation that the Zohar predicts life on the other side of the Earth; the Zohar is a notoriously mysterious text, and you are likely more experienced with it than I am.