“In the secular world, all they seem to care about is safety and health, which are important, but there’s very little emphasis on character building, social skills, or meaningful self-improvement.” True for many. Not true for me, but I agree with this statement.
“Something that should be a small slice of life—finding a mate—has turned into a long, exhausting ordeal that can drag on for 20 years or more.“ Fascinating observation. I wonder why this is.
“Then there's the issue of real life: job, marriage, kids, and community. Here, the difference between religious and secular life hits hard. There’s no real secular community. People make friends at work, but there’s no support system, even from extended family. There’s no sense that other people genuinely care about your family or your kids. It’s every person for themselves. The religious culture is just the opposite: it is extremely community-minded and very supportive.” Seems mostly true, though I wonder if they genuinely care about your family or your kids, of if they just want us secular folks to come to church.
“And if in your secular culture, you opt out of having children, choosing to be part of the DINK (Dual Income, No Kids) lifestyle, your life becomes a cycle of Netflix, gaming, and vacations. But eventually, you’ll grow old. What then? Without a community or family, who will be there for you?” Obviously one can opt out of having kids and choose SINK (Single Income, No Kids), but this is a very minor objection to a wonderful question. Thank you. What then? I agree.
“Even for the most successful secular individuals, like Barack Obama, life isn't all peaches and cream. Sure, he’s achieved incredible success, but he can’t go anywhere without security. He can’t make mistakes without it becoming a public ordeal. Success in secular terms comes with its own set of pressures and limitations.“. Hard to make general statements about the secular lives of others based on Barack’s life. I would delete this paragraph or try to say this another way, without using Barack as your example.
That’s a good positive way of saying it. There is another perspective that that begins with the pondering questions, “Why me? Why am I carrying this burden? Am I a fool to have decided upon this path?”
It’s baked into our DNA to want certain things like family, love and respect. The DNA came about through evolution. Where did the first life form come from? We can call that God, or physics. Take your pick. Both provide valuable perspectives. It’s good to understand both.
“Personally, I prefer the humble, grounded life of the very religious. Faith, family, and community come first. The simplicity and interconnectedness of religious life beat the individualism and constant striving of secular life.“ I’m not sure you need to make such distinctions. I love this paragraph, except including the word secular. I would change this last sentence to: “The simplicity and interconnectedness of my religious life beats individualism and constant striving that I see in others.”
“That doesn’t mean that in religious life there is no striving. A human being really does need ambition, but the ambition is on the spiritual plane. The striving is to be a better person, to accomplish good things, and to become more learned in G-d’s wisdom. Advancing in these areas gives a person a true feeling of accomplishment and doesn’t involve climbing on the heads of others. Striving for secular goals, such as money and honor, never leaves a person truly happy.“ I like this paragraph, but it’s important for me to define the spiritual plane. I’m not sure we would agree on the spiritual plane, and thus I’m not sure I could feel fully welcome in your religious community unless I adopted your version of spiritual plane. Also I’m not Jewish, so I would feel like an outsider, probably always. What are the requirements for your community? Is there a way for a secular, non-Jew to be part of your religious community?
The spiritual plane for me includes: unknown, wonder, metaphor, poetry, song, meditation, love, respect, gratitude, humility, integrity, exercise, family, learning, growth, hope, positive thinking, truth seeking, emergent order, the impartial spectator, tolerance, health, improvement, mutual sympathy, physics, biology, evolution, etc., but I don’t believe that invisible spirits exist outside of metaphor. The invisible spirits that exist are the metaphors of my conscience and my mind. That can still be spiritual, but it probably takes a sophisticated poet to implement it and make it compelling. I’m no poet, but I’m learning.
I'm learning to articulate my thoughts more clearly, thanks in part to your feedback.
I believe deeply in a spiritual dimension, and this shapes how I view the world. Because of this belief, I’m not particularly convinced by scientific theories like evolution, the Big Bang, or panspermia. These ideas simply don’t resonate with the way I experience life. For me, the secular world occupies only a small part of existence. I see the spiritual as a very real and essential part of life—it's not just a metaphor.
I also see myself as part of a universal community, a family of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, connected through a shared spiritual lineage.
In this piece, I’m not suggesting that everyone should join the religious community or adopt the same beliefs I hold. My point is more about coexistence—people shouldn't be so upset at the idea of being neighbors with those who have a different spiritual perspective.
“I see the spiritual as a very real and essential part of life—it's not just a metaphor.“ Would you mind elaborating on this? Not necessarily here in the comments.
“In this piece, I’m not suggesting that everyone should join the religious community or adopt the same beliefs I hold. My point is more about coexistence—people shouldn't be so upset at the idea of being neighbors with those who have a different spiritual perspective.“ I would prefer that we agree though. Wouldn’t you?
Wife and mother, don’t care what anyone else thinks.
Enjoy the intellectual side of Judaism but find that motherhood speaks to me even more, at least as far as the two conflict.
Secular society has sold people a bill of goods and made them so scared of traditional living that they cannot evaluate which way they would prefer, religious practices are so twisted and maligned, even hearing the truth doesn’t penetrate.
There’s a dearth of long-term thinking, like as you say DINK, have they thought one, two, three decades ahead?
Valuing modesty, feeling that women who don’t value modesty weren’t necessarily given the option to see themselves that way. And that wasn’t fair to them.
Shana Tova!
You too, fungusmaster!
G’mar Chatimah Tovah!
“I find it strange that more people don’t see the beauty of religious life and community, especially compared to secular alternatives.”
I find religious life and community beautiful, but my religion is secular.
And your community?
I don’t have much of one outside my family.
Can you explain to me why that is?
That’s a long conversation. I’d be happy to, but it won’t fit here in the comments. Where can I tell you my story?
“In the secular world, all they seem to care about is safety and health, which are important, but there’s very little emphasis on character building, social skills, or meaningful self-improvement.” True for many. Not true for me, but I agree with this statement.
“Something that should be a small slice of life—finding a mate—has turned into a long, exhausting ordeal that can drag on for 20 years or more.“ Fascinating observation. I wonder why this is.
“Then there's the issue of real life: job, marriage, kids, and community. Here, the difference between religious and secular life hits hard. There’s no real secular community. People make friends at work, but there’s no support system, even from extended family. There’s no sense that other people genuinely care about your family or your kids. It’s every person for themselves. The religious culture is just the opposite: it is extremely community-minded and very supportive.” Seems mostly true, though I wonder if they genuinely care about your family or your kids, of if they just want us secular folks to come to church.
I'm Jewish and do not proselytize!
I’m not Jewish and have a tendency to proselytize to my family and want to proselytize to others.
That's fine, we can disagree on this :)
“And if in your secular culture, you opt out of having children, choosing to be part of the DINK (Dual Income, No Kids) lifestyle, your life becomes a cycle of Netflix, gaming, and vacations. But eventually, you’ll grow old. What then? Without a community or family, who will be there for you?” Obviously one can opt out of having kids and choose SINK (Single Income, No Kids), but this is a very minor objection to a wonderful question. Thank you. What then? I agree.
I didn't realize SINK was a thing.
I didn’t realize DINK was a thing.
“Even for the most successful secular individuals, like Barack Obama, life isn't all peaches and cream. Sure, he’s achieved incredible success, but he can’t go anywhere without security. He can’t make mistakes without it becoming a public ordeal. Success in secular terms comes with its own set of pressures and limitations.“. Hard to make general statements about the secular lives of others based on Barack’s life. I would delete this paragraph or try to say this another way, without using Barack as your example.
I was trying to come up with an inarguable example, and he's what came to mind. What I'm trying to say here is that all things come with sacrifices.
That’s a good positive way of saying it. There is another perspective that that begins with the pondering questions, “Why me? Why am I carrying this burden? Am I a fool to have decided upon this path?”
These are good questions! Perhaps you should write a post with your thoughts :)
It’s in my Drafts folder. Thanks for the encouragement.
I really want to read it!
Me too. Haven’t finished it yet. It’s hard to write.
There's an even more fundamental question. How do you know what to want?
It’s baked into our DNA to want certain things like family, love and respect. The DNA came about through evolution. Where did the first life form come from? We can call that God, or physics. Take your pick. Both provide valuable perspectives. It’s good to understand both.
“Personally, I prefer the humble, grounded life of the very religious. Faith, family, and community come first. The simplicity and interconnectedness of religious life beat the individualism and constant striving of secular life.“ I’m not sure you need to make such distinctions. I love this paragraph, except including the word secular. I would change this last sentence to: “The simplicity and interconnectedness of my religious life beats individualism and constant striving that I see in others.”
Thank you, Scott, for this and all your helpful comments! I edited as you recommended and really appreciate it.
“That doesn’t mean that in religious life there is no striving. A human being really does need ambition, but the ambition is on the spiritual plane. The striving is to be a better person, to accomplish good things, and to become more learned in G-d’s wisdom. Advancing in these areas gives a person a true feeling of accomplishment and doesn’t involve climbing on the heads of others. Striving for secular goals, such as money and honor, never leaves a person truly happy.“ I like this paragraph, but it’s important for me to define the spiritual plane. I’m not sure we would agree on the spiritual plane, and thus I’m not sure I could feel fully welcome in your religious community unless I adopted your version of spiritual plane. Also I’m not Jewish, so I would feel like an outsider, probably always. What are the requirements for your community? Is there a way for a secular, non-Jew to be part of your religious community?
The spiritual plane for me includes: unknown, wonder, metaphor, poetry, song, meditation, love, respect, gratitude, humility, integrity, exercise, family, learning, growth, hope, positive thinking, truth seeking, emergent order, the impartial spectator, tolerance, health, improvement, mutual sympathy, physics, biology, evolution, etc., but I don’t believe that invisible spirits exist outside of metaphor. The invisible spirits that exist are the metaphors of my conscience and my mind. That can still be spiritual, but it probably takes a sophisticated poet to implement it and make it compelling. I’m no poet, but I’m learning.
I'm learning to articulate my thoughts more clearly, thanks in part to your feedback.
I believe deeply in a spiritual dimension, and this shapes how I view the world. Because of this belief, I’m not particularly convinced by scientific theories like evolution, the Big Bang, or panspermia. These ideas simply don’t resonate with the way I experience life. For me, the secular world occupies only a small part of existence. I see the spiritual as a very real and essential part of life—it's not just a metaphor.
I also see myself as part of a universal community, a family of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, connected through a shared spiritual lineage.
In this piece, I’m not suggesting that everyone should join the religious community or adopt the same beliefs I hold. My point is more about coexistence—people shouldn't be so upset at the idea of being neighbors with those who have a different spiritual perspective.
“These ideas simply don’t resonate with the way I experience life.“ They don’t resonate with me either, but I tend to see them as closer to truth.
“I see the spiritual as a very real and essential part of life—it's not just a metaphor.“ Would you mind elaborating on this? Not necessarily here in the comments.
I hope to respond by tomorrow, not ignoring!
I think of it as electricity. It exists but you cannot know it by seeing. Obviously it's also less physical.
How what exists?
“In this piece, I’m not suggesting that everyone should join the religious community or adopt the same beliefs I hold. My point is more about coexistence—people shouldn't be so upset at the idea of being neighbors with those who have a different spiritual perspective.“ I would prefer that we agree though. Wouldn’t you?
No, I think it's okay to disagree!
It’s okay to disagree, but wouldn’t you like people to agree with you on matters that are important to you?
Thanks for these “random thoughts.” This is my favorite post of yours. I wish I had a religious community beyond my family.
Thank you!!
Some really great and thought-provoking ideas
Thank you!
Having grown up in secular schools and now living in the orthodox world, I can relate to much of what you've written about.
Thank you!
So much of this resonates with me.
So so much.
I don’t know where to start.
Thank you. I really enjoy your writing, too
Wife and mother, don’t care what anyone else thinks.
Enjoy the intellectual side of Judaism but find that motherhood speaks to me even more, at least as far as the two conflict.
Secular society has sold people a bill of goods and made them so scared of traditional living that they cannot evaluate which way they would prefer, religious practices are so twisted and maligned, even hearing the truth doesn’t penetrate.
There’s a dearth of long-term thinking, like as you say DINK, have they thought one, two, three decades ahead?
Valuing modesty, feeling that women who don’t value modesty weren’t necessarily given the option to see themselves that way. And that wasn’t fair to them.
The obsession with safety, taken seriously in religious circles but academics assuming a religious woman cannot have a brain…
So much here…